Episode 240 - Convo with the Christian Caucus of the Libertarian Party

[00:00:00] If you're a California conservative, a libertarian, a moderate Democrat, believe in common sense,

[00:00:11] or just the same person.

[00:00:13] This is the political podcast for you.

[00:00:15] It's the California Underground Podcast.

[00:00:27] What's going on, everybody?

[00:00:28] Thanks for tuning into another episode of the California Underground Podcast.

[00:00:31] I am your host Phil.

[00:00:32] With me, as always, is my trustee, co-host Camille, the best and fastest researcher in the

[00:00:37] West.

[00:00:38] Tonight we have not one but two guests for you.

[00:00:43] Two members, two founders of the Christian caucus of the Libertarian Party, which is fitting

[00:00:48] that they actually ended up being on this podcast this week right before Christmas.

[00:00:53] It's kind of fitting.

[00:00:54] It's kind of like a Christmas-y Christian episode for the California Underground Podcast.

[00:00:59] Merry Christmas to everybody.

[00:01:02] Jacob and Cara, welcome to the show.

[00:01:04] How are you guys?

[00:01:05] Good.

[00:01:06] Thanks for having us on.

[00:01:08] We're stoked to be here.

[00:01:09] Yeah, I'm fantastic.

[00:01:11] I'm remembering what it's like to be young and stay up to an ungodly hours of the night.

[00:01:17] Glad to be here with you guys though.

[00:01:19] Yeah, thank you, Jacob, for staying up here on the East Coast right now.

[00:01:23] This is tuning into a California podcast, being a trooper.

[00:01:29] Why don't you guys just first off start off?

[00:01:32] Why don't you introduce yourselves and who you are, how you're involved in the Christian

[00:01:36] caucus and let's just start there?

[00:01:38] I guess I could start with how it first got started.

[00:01:43] I was kind of looking for a place within the Libertarian Party if there was already some

[00:01:48] kind of Christian caucus because I was willing to just kind of join up if there was one.

[00:01:52] The only thing I could find was like a dormant Twitter and a defunct website with nothing

[00:01:57] going on.

[00:01:59] I did come across the Libertarian Christian Institute.

[00:02:02] I had already been following Jacob on Twitter for a while.

[00:02:06] He actually jumped into a same thread that I was kind of going back and forth with this

[00:02:11] girl.

[00:02:12] She was kind of like hating on, I don't know if you remember that or not, but she was kind

[00:02:15] of like hating on church and Christians and stuff and she was another Libertarian and

[00:02:19] like, he kind of and I go, oh this guy's like, you make sense.

[00:02:24] So I started following him and I really liked his takes on a lot of stuff.

[00:02:27] I felt like our views and our values lined up a lot.

[00:02:32] So when I was looking to start this caucus because there wasn't one, I was just looking

[00:02:37] for it.

[00:02:38] I didn't have any specific aspirations of like, oh, I just want it to be so big and like,

[00:02:47] be the biggest thing in the party.

[00:02:48] I was just like, I just want to find other Christians in the party who want to do work

[00:02:53] where Christianity and Libertarianism intersect because it just wasn't sitting right with

[00:03:01] me to just do any kind of work in the Libertarian movement.

[00:03:05] And you know, it can easily, you know, if you just go wherever the wind blows, next

[00:03:10] thing, you know, what sex work is work type of advocacy or something in the Libertarian

[00:03:15] party if you're not careful or like, you know, and I'm going, I feel like this pull

[00:03:20] to do what God would want me to be doing.

[00:03:23] And so that's just kind of so I started like kind of reaching out in places like we're

[00:03:28] both part of the Mises caucus and I so I like reached out in there and some people in

[00:03:34] there were interested but Jacob was a co-founder from the beginning with me.

[00:03:41] I don't know if you have any other thoughts about the start, Jacob.

[00:03:46] Yeah, I mean, I think the way you pitched it to me, it was funny because we had all kind

[00:03:52] of when we got together and started talking about it, we were pretty much on the same page

[00:03:58] from the beginning that we wanted a sort of home, you know, both like from a social,

[00:04:05] cultural perspective and then from a, you know, networking political perspective for

[00:04:09] Christians to come to when they entered Libertarian circles and, you know, the Libertarian

[00:04:16] party specifically have a place to go to.

[00:04:19] I mean, there's great, you know, organizations like Libertarian Christian Institute to have

[00:04:24] their book right here to my, to my left that exists in the Liberty Movement but, you

[00:04:30] know, there wasn't really an active group of Christians co-litioning and working together

[00:04:35] in the political apparatus of Libertarian Movement which is the LP and so we felt like there

[00:04:41] was great opportunity to, you know, to do that and to focus on, you know, and listen,

[00:04:48] I'm also a member and an organizer in the Mises Caucus and I support a lot of what the

[00:04:53] Mises Caucus does.

[00:04:54] There's definitely overlap there but there are issues that we as Christians want to

[00:04:59] specifically focus on that aren't really the mission of the Mises Caucus and so we wanted

[00:05:06] to have a place where Christian Libertarians could come together and kind of coalition

[00:05:12] on those things that we want to coalition on within the Libertarian party space, so to

[00:05:17] speak.

[00:05:18] So yeah, I think Cara kind of summed up the beginning there pretty well.

[00:05:21] Yeah.

[00:05:22] And then one other thing I'll just tag on real quick.

[00:05:25] Yeah, go ahead.

[00:05:28] Oh yeah, I was going to say the other thing is we kind of wanted a bidirectional thing.

[00:05:33] I was involved with starting a group at my old church and there is one where I live

[00:05:38] now in Fulbert our church has a group too that's like a politically action oriented group

[00:05:45] or ministry within the church.

[00:05:47] And I, we have a lot of those actually in California but some people don't have those

[00:05:51] and so I also wanted to help people bring that action to their local church in some

[00:05:59] kind of biblical action ministries and other places too.

[00:06:04] So we wanted to bring Christian influence and have a home for Christians in the party,

[00:06:09] but we also wanted to bring like libertarianism to our churches and like political action

[00:06:13] that we know.

[00:06:15] So kind of both directions.

[00:06:19] So this may be an odd question, but hear me out for either of you which came first,

[00:06:25] chicken or the egg, were you Christian first then libertarian or were you libertarian

[00:06:31] first and then you became more of a Christian whoever wants to jump in first.

[00:06:36] Yeah, you know, that's a very good question.

[00:06:40] And I don't know.

[00:06:41] I mean, I guess the easiest answer is that I've kind of always been a Christian I was raised

[00:06:47] raised in the church, I was like a pastor's kid and I became a libertarian later in life.

[00:06:53] But I don't want to leave it at that because I think there is something to what I went

[00:06:59] through when I discovered libertarianism and then I began to go back and do the work

[00:07:04] of sort of like reconciling my new found political views with my faith because that led me

[00:07:11] down a journey that actually really deep into my faith and really made my Christian faith

[00:07:16] come more alive to me and kind of not just in a superficial sense but really changed the

[00:07:22] way that I view the gospel, that I view the kingdom of God and what Jesus' mission and

[00:07:27] ministry was when he walked his earth and what it means to be ambassadors for Christ,

[00:07:34] to be heirs with Christ.

[00:07:37] And so you know, I'm not in a way it's like yes, we kind of use this term Christian libertarian.

[00:07:46] I don't really look at it that way in a sense of like I'm not wearing two different hats,

[00:07:50] I'm not a Christian who is also a libertarian.

[00:07:52] It's more like I am a Christian and I think a consequence of that because I'm trying to take

[00:07:58] what the Bible teaches about government and authority and kingdoms and spirituality and morality

[00:08:07] and take all these things and take them consistently and to have the fact that Christ is Lord be

[00:08:13] something that is true in all areas of my life.

[00:08:18] In many ways, that deeper commitment to my faith came after I became a libertarian so

[00:08:25] it's kind of like a chicken egg and then chicken sort of thing.

[00:08:29] Cara, I never really thought much.

[00:08:34] Well yeah, I agree a lot with what he said and like I've heard him talk about this and

[00:08:39] we've talked about it before.

[00:08:42] The main thing is that and I think Jacob and I both agree with this is that libertarianism

[00:08:48] is like kind of the logical like conclusion in our opinion when you follow the Bible and

[00:08:58] what Jesus taught us.

[00:08:59] And I think, you know, I used to never think that political views and your religion had

[00:09:06] anything to do with each other and that is something that's changed for me later in

[00:09:11] life as a libertarian where I do think that they do have something to do with each other.

[00:09:18] I don't think you could just, you know, believe anything politically and it's just coalesces

[00:09:25] with Christianity.

[00:09:26] So I do think they like go hand in hand in a sense but I would definitely Christianity first

[00:09:34] and it is the foundation for everything from which all my other things flow.

[00:09:39] So I would say like to answer the question that that is first and then the libertarianism

[00:09:44] was a natural consequence of that.

[00:09:46] Yeah, I mean, I would agree with you guys.

[00:09:50] I've been, it was over a year ago.

[00:09:56] I did RCA join my local Catholic church deep in my faith.

[00:10:01] I was always Christian.

[00:10:02] I was always involved in the church but this past couple of years have sort of, I've

[00:10:09] gotten deeper in my faith.

[00:10:11] But also at the same time like I picked up this book called Anatomy of the State and I

[00:10:15] started going down this rabbit hole and I was like, who's this Murray Rothbard guy?

[00:10:20] And I started to read more Murray Rothbard and then I started to read like for a new liberty

[00:10:23] and then I started to read every time I say Anatomy of the State, I tell my listeners it's

[00:10:27] a must read just go read it.

[00:10:29] It's like 75 pages.

[00:10:30] It's not that long.

[00:10:33] And so not like they weren't, they were just coinciding together, like going together and

[00:10:39] as like the more I deep in my faith it was like, and I was reading more about libertarianism.

[00:10:43] I was like, huh, these actually work out better as I was trying to like coalesce them.

[00:10:49] So it was interesting when I found you guys and I was like, oh, there's actually a Christian

[00:10:53] caucus dedicated to this.

[00:10:57] So let's get into the nitty gritty because people have a lot of misconceptions about

[00:11:02] what libertarians stand for.

[00:11:04] And I'm sure there's a lot of people who when they hear the terms libertarian and Christian

[00:11:08] together, they're probably like, wait, that doesn't make any sense.

[00:11:11] How is that possible?

[00:11:13] So let's just dive right in.

[00:11:15] Let's just get into the nitty gritty.

[00:11:18] So someone here is the term libertarian.

[00:11:20] They think, well, libertarians are those goofy people who believe weed and all drugs

[00:11:25] should be legal, prostitution should be legal.

[00:11:28] So how can you be a Christian if you support people being engaged in prostitution and

[00:11:33] doing drugs and stuff like that?

[00:11:35] So I guess I'll throw that first one out there.

[00:11:38] So like, how do you coincide for our listeners who are wondering, how do these two philosophies

[00:11:44] coincide with each other and how do they actually work?

[00:11:46] I just want to say that was literally my exact question so I'm sorry.

[00:11:51] Yeah, it shows we've been doing a podcast together for a while.

[00:11:56] Yeah, well, I think the way I like to approach it is that in sort of the same vein of the

[00:12:03] answer I gave to the first question, you know, if we have Christians do need to start

[00:12:08] out with our fundamentals, which is recognizing Christ as our king, as well as our Savior

[00:12:15] and our Lord, and figuring out what that means for us and our lives.

[00:12:20] And then figuring out what that means in terms of, and then what we advocate for in terms

[00:12:24] of, you know, the kind of society that we want to live in.

[00:12:30] Libertarianism I think, and there's a lot of different ways to define it.

[00:12:34] Libertarianism I think is most appropriately defined in terms of answering the question

[00:12:38] of when is the legitimate or appropriate use of force allowed in sort of the civil sense

[00:12:49] rights, right?

[00:12:50] Like when are we allowed to use force and the libertarian answer is you were not allowed

[00:12:55] to use force in terms of initiating aggression against others.

[00:12:59] The only legitimate use of force is in response to someone who's already initiated meaning

[00:13:06] to define like self-defense or in pursuit of justice in terms of after someone's rights

[00:13:12] have been violated.

[00:13:13] And I think that lines up perfectly with what Christianity teaches.

[00:13:18] And the reason why these, why these things coalesce is because again, I think what Christianity

[00:13:25] has to teach with the scripture has to teach about these different areas of life.

[00:13:31] They do require us to have a worldview that doesn't, that isn't like compartmentalized

[00:13:38] in a way where we're a Christian in, in these areas.

[00:13:42] Then we think that our Christian faith doesn't have anything to say in these other areas.

[00:13:47] And I think there's a lot of Christians who unfortunately in today's culture, like maybe

[00:13:53] here, like in the West especially in America.

[00:13:56] They tend to fall into two camps.

[00:13:57] They fall into the camp of either they don't care about politics or they do but they think

[00:14:02] that the right way to care about politics is that Christians need to basically take hold

[00:14:10] of the civil magistrate and use it to usher in their Christian values and preferences

[00:14:18] and force them upon the population.

[00:14:22] And what we're saying is no actually if we look at the example of Jesus Christ, we look

[00:14:27] at what he taught, he didn't teach or model himself the use of political power to achieve

[00:14:34] our ends.

[00:14:36] Rather, Jesus sort of subverted that expectation because that's what the Jews of the time were

[00:14:41] looking for in the Messiah.

[00:14:43] They wanted someone to come and lead them in a political revolution to free them from

[00:14:49] Roman persecution but Jesus instead subverted that expectation.

[00:14:54] And when he came to like mark the gospel of Mark starts out with John the Baptist and

[00:15:02] Jesus basically proclaiming that the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God is at hand but

[00:15:09] then when Jesus goes on in the gospel to find the kingdom of God it's not this earthly

[00:15:15] kingdom rather it is a spiritual kingdom that is based on making the way Christ describes

[00:15:24] it is that if you want to be greatest in the kingdom of heaven you must become the least

[00:15:29] and become a servant to all just as the son of man has come down not to be served but

[00:15:35] too serve and to be poured out as a ransom for many.

[00:15:38] And we're to model that.

[00:15:39] And so I think that's really the connection there is that if we are going to live you know

[00:15:44] as Christians right, we're going to be followers of Christ and we're going to imitate

[00:15:47] Christ his character, his values and what he says is normative then we ought not to seek

[00:15:56] to use coercion or force to try to get people to do what we want the only legitimate use of

[00:16:03] force is in self-defense or in response to people's rights being violated and then everything

[00:16:11] else is just a matter of us going out there being salt and light in the world I think it's

[00:16:16] the role of the church where to we're not to be rulers of men, where to be fishers of men.

[00:16:22] And so that's what the great commission is it's not to go out there and

[00:16:25] wield the power of the sword in pursuit of the gospel because those things are actually

[00:16:31] as a theoretical rather we are to go out there and you know sort of engage in the free market

[00:16:37] right engage in voluntary interactions with people and to be servant to the world right where

[00:16:45] where to you know bring people to the to Christ, bring people to the cross not through the sword

[00:16:52] but through being servants to all. Yeah can I can add on a little bit to speaking to the whole

[00:17:02] misconception thing so I run into this a lot so for example when I told the woman at my old church

[00:17:12] in Oceanside that I had started the political action ministry with her she's like a little older

[00:17:19] than me like in her 50s and I was like you know I joined the Libertarian party and she's just like

[00:17:26] she looked like I killed her puppy she just couldn't believe it you know oh yeah like but I wanted

[00:17:33] you to run for school board and I was going to get through a public and within all behind you

[00:17:36] and she's like I don't know if I was like I'm sorry like this is just what I feel like is

[00:17:41] right and you know it you know I tell a lot of Christians the first thing they talk about is

[00:17:49] abortion and the abortion you know thing like well they don't Libertarians for abortion and

[00:17:55] you know actually just to like clear the air on that one right away that would we don't have any

[00:18:01] reference to abortion anymore in our platform it was completely that plank was completely deleted

[00:18:07] because of course we need room for the people that say that abortion violates the non-aggression

[00:18:14] principle and therefore it's not compatible with Libertarianism because there is a lot of us

[00:18:19] that believe life starts at conception and there is varying degrees of how we think we should deal

[00:18:25] with that whether it's through you know lessening the states cropping up of abortion services some

[00:18:32] people think there should be laws and they're still Libertarian because you know the argument

[00:18:38] for those people that are more like minarchists not anarchist would be will would you

[00:18:44] like let murder be legal and just hope that you know and then just have no legal consequence for it so

[00:18:50] there is people within the Libertarian party that are definitely pro-life for example and some believe

[00:18:57] there should even be a law about it and then others prefer the more you know cultural shift and

[00:19:03] voluntary means of changing that and then another thing that comes to mind and I don't know if I'm

[00:19:09] using this word right but I've heard the word liberty and I don't know Jacob maybe knows that word

[00:19:16] like people that kind of like they find their home in the Libertarian party because they just want

[00:19:21] to do whatever they want kind of like nihilistic they want to find a place where they're accepted

[00:19:26] now the thing is when we say like especially like Jacob and I if we want sex work to be able to

[00:19:36] not have laws against it it's not because we promote it or anything like like drugs like we don't

[00:19:43] we don't think drugs are good we don't think sex work is work it's prostitution it's like in a

[00:19:48] moral bombination terrible for society families and everything else like pornography but

[00:19:54] we just think that perhaps the state is not the best way to go about that because then they start

[00:20:02] overreaching into other things and you know there's just no stopping it I mean anatomy in the state

[00:20:07] I've never read it I'm like sorry but I think one of the metaphors is how it's like this thing that

[00:20:13] keeps throwing and growing and growing is that right or is that a different book that I'm thinking of

[00:20:17] but it's like this Leviathan that just keeps consuming and growing and that's why we don't want

[00:20:22] to give it any power even if it's over something we morally think isn't good and of course

[00:20:30] aside from whether it technically has a law or not alongside it we would never especially as

[00:20:36] Christians we don't promote any of that stuff so just because we think the state should be out

[00:20:41] of something definitely doesn't mean we think that we think it's cool and awesome or okay and there

[00:20:49] are a lot of libertarians that fill the same way as us about it and that's you know and those

[00:20:54] misconceptions are another major reason why this caucus is so important for our party because I

[00:21:01] used to have those misconceptions well I think our party has actually become more hospitable actually

[00:21:08] to Christians than it was maybe in the semi recent past but this it's really important for people

[00:21:15] to know like you know there is a place for Christians in the libertarian party and it is compatible

[00:21:20] and like to get rid of some of those misconceptions so yeah like I've had on my podcast people from

[00:21:27] the libertarian party who have there's actually a another caucus that's called the sober caucus

[00:21:33] and it's actually a caucus that promotes although they promote the libertarian position of opposing

[00:21:39] the drug war they're actually alongside like us in terms of promoting a sort of culture change

[00:21:46] within libertarian spaces and the libertarian party to say like you know maybe we don't think

[00:21:50] this stuff should be illegal but that doesn't mean that we should be promoting it rather what we

[00:21:55] should be promoting is helping people to get clean and promoting free market solutions to drug addiction

[00:22:02] and drug abuse and things like that and really it just comes down to you know libertarian

[00:22:09] positions on things like the drug war aren't about celebrating drug use they just come down to

[00:22:15] is the laws that are being talked about and the agencies being created to combat these problems

[00:22:22] are they solving problems or are they making problems worse and you know I think when it comes

[00:22:28] to the drug war there's really no metric of analysis that would say that it's been anything other

[00:22:34] than a complete catastrophe because it's only I mean drug use continues to increase the drug

[00:22:41] cartels continue to increase in power and we just see more people flooding into the prison industrial

[00:22:50] complex and we have the world you know here in America we have the world's largest prison population

[00:22:55] and it's filled with mostly non-violent drug offenders you know as a Christian I don't celebrate

[00:23:02] drug use however kind of like what I was saying before people who are addicted to drugs who are

[00:23:09] using substances in a way that I would find to be immoral and incompatible with what the

[00:23:14] Bible more like someone with a gun forcing them in a cage or do they need services that are

[00:23:21] better offered by you know medical facilities or by churches or things at the free market can

[00:23:27] handle in terms of giving them ways out of that and so that's really what the the conversation needs

[00:23:33] to be about and I find that not only is it compatible with Christianity again I think this is actually

[00:23:39] the correct Christian response to things like the drug crisis going on here in America.

[00:23:45] The the retort to it from a lot of conservatives or Republicans if you say well you know

[00:23:52] I if you're libertarian in Christian they say well then then society's just gonna fall into

[00:23:59] mass chaos it's just gonna fall into shambles we're just gonna degrade as a society

[00:24:04] and I guess my counterpoint to that always is well what's your solution and inevitably it becomes

[00:24:11] the solution of will the state will then put out policies and laws to regulate morality based

[00:24:21] on what they believe is moral and to me that kind of comes off as like a pseudo-theocratic

[00:24:29] kind of way of governing where okay so you're gonna use the power of the state to force your

[00:24:34] morality on other people what's not to say that the state can't turn around when somebody else is

[00:24:40] in power and then all of a sudden force their morality on people which we're seeing today exactly

[00:24:45] that's exactly what's happening right now like the the left has taken control of all these institutions

[00:24:53] that you know decades ago the the right and the sort of like evangelical Judeo-Christian majority

[00:25:01] had a had a monopoly over and so it's not that I'm a fan of the left winning the culture war

[00:25:08] and using the state to cram certain beliefs and lifestyles and and you know sort of like anti-Christian

[00:25:16] mindsets into our schools and into the media and things like that like I'm I'm not for that

[00:25:22] but you know in the same way that like libertarian to inform policy we'll talk about blowback

[00:25:27] of government interventions in uh in other areas kind of like how uh you know things like 9-11 were

[00:25:36] you know kind of like not not justified but but were foreseeable uh it was like foreseeable blowback

[00:25:43] for America being involved in regime change and occupation in the Middle East for decades well

[00:25:48] what's going on right now is sort of a left-wing blowback in the culture war where it's like well yeah

[00:25:55] like you know right-wing Christians using the state to force certain things down from the state

[00:26:04] down into the culture that was eventually going to lead to a you know reactionary claim from

[00:26:11] the left to do the same thing back um and now you see the right is trying to you know just well

[00:26:17] let's just try it again and maybe this time will it'll work but which look back through history has

[00:26:22] that ever worked not only is that not worked in terms of like just you know modern history or what

[00:26:29] is documented history but we can even look at Christians to biblical history and see that

[00:26:35] this hasn't worked i mean if it didn't work with god making a specific covenant with the people of

[00:26:42] Israel and giving him giving them a law that he himself constructed and gave to them and even god

[00:26:49] in this covenant with this group of people giving them laws that he constructed couldn't make them

[00:26:56] adhere to the laws well then how like how are we going to say that we're going to be able to do

[00:27:02] better than god to do that on a on a on a on a on a any kind of scale um i mean it you know

[00:27:09] it's it'd be one thing if it was just about well it's just you know i think the right response is

[00:27:13] what we need to obviously lead people towards righteousness but again i think we need to lead people

[00:27:20] in the way christ led people and you know christ would would speak against people's sinful lifestyles

[00:27:26] but he wouldn't do it while pointing a gun at them or or holding a sword at their through

[00:27:33] so that's something we need to think about you know something that roth bar talks about in

[00:27:37] the anatomist of the state and something libertarians talk about that Christians need to understand

[00:27:41] is that anytime we pass a law a law is just an opinion backed by a gun

[00:27:47] that's all it is at the end of the day otherwise it's just words on paper

[00:27:51] the only thing that makes a law different from me typing something out on my keyboard

[00:27:56] and saying people listen to me is that what compels people to listen to that is the threat of violence

[00:28:04] and so we have to ask ourselves okay we might not like this thing but are we willing to hold people

[00:28:10] you know hold guns to people's heads to make them do what we want and i think that someone who

[00:28:15] is trying to follow after christ should should find themselves convicted that maybe that's not the way

[00:28:21] we're supposed to engage with the world i have a comment uh we were talking about the book that you

[00:28:28] have Jacob in the corner the faith seeking freedom book which i picked up and started reading

[00:28:33] a few weeks ago that had nothing to do with actually tonight's podcast so full disclosure

[00:28:38] am a registered republican and um and that doesn't mean that i think that the republican party is perfect

[00:28:44] and in fact that's kind of why i started reading more stuff on the libertarian party

[00:28:49] and i have to say reading that book um i'm not completely finished it with you but i started

[00:28:54] thinking actually about my christian democrat friends and i think that if they were to go and do

[00:29:01] a little bit of research they would find they are actually libertarian and not democratic at all

[00:29:07] well i mean you're speaking to someone uh me personally who used to be a democrat um i mean i was raised

[00:29:14] in a conservative republican household but because i was you know i mean i learned early on a lot of

[00:29:21] things that pushed me into the left i i learned about sort of the american role in in the middle east

[00:29:27] and things that had happened there which you know made me kind of adopt a sort of like anti-war

[00:29:34] anti-interventionist uh position and i opposed the drug war for kind of similar reasons i do today

[00:29:41] i just didn't understand economics and so i kind of you know back then you were either a

[00:29:48] Ron Paul libertarian if you had my positional war and drugs or you'd find yourself on the left and so

[00:29:54] I was kind of a you know more more left-wing kind of Bernie Sanders type democrat uh but after 2016 when

[00:30:03] trump got elected and the left just kind of decided to abandon the only principles they had in terms

[00:30:09] of being anti-war and anti-war on drugs and instead double and triple down on identity politics

[00:30:15] and the culture war they kind of lost me um and then once i kind of understood economics through

[00:30:23] discovering like mises and and Rothbard and the the Austrian school of economics and and and what

[00:30:29] not that sort of pushed me fully into you know libertarianism in terms of a political philosophy but

[00:30:35] yeah there's a lot of uh christian progressives and and people who are more like left-wing christians

[00:30:42] who to this day i would say that they a lot of their intuitions are correct and i think the only

[00:30:49] things that they're getting wrong are uh me kind of like the the the the economic side of things um

[00:30:57] because though i do think it you know in in hindsight i can recognize that i also made this

[00:31:03] mistake but it is kind of weird to be like oh we are going to criticize the state for

[00:31:09] throwing people in cages and you know bombing people halfway across the world and you know

[00:31:15] doing all these evil things but we want them to run our health care

[00:31:19] hmm right like yeah like that doesn't quite make a lot of sense when you think about it like

[00:31:24] we think that you know it's like these people are evil horrible monsters on these issues

[00:31:28] but they're going to be benevolent uh gentle uh saviors on this other like no not really the same

[00:31:37] corruptive incentives are going to come into play there um no matter where we apply that power so

[00:31:44] but yeah there's there's a lot of uh overlap where i think that you know sometimes

[00:31:52] I think some some christians think that the uh the left-wing types have a lot wrong

[00:31:57] I find that they have a lot right in terms of their intuitions and um you know i hope if they

[00:32:03] were to read a book like they're seeking freedom but they would see that uh you know i think their

[00:32:08] main hesitation happens to be with the free market what i think actually is something that god has

[00:32:14] created to be a normative way of which we solve problems in the world and not through the state

[00:32:20] actually it's funny like one of my favorite bible passages is uh in the book of first Samuel

[00:32:26] in chapter eight and people forget that israel used to exist without a state because before

[00:32:33] uh first Samuel eight so like the book of judges and then the first seven chapters of chapters

[00:32:39] of of first Samuel israel lived in a decentralized confederacy that was almost you know like a

[00:32:46] libertarian anarchistic theocracy in a sense where they had judges who would rise up in certain

[00:32:53] areas and help settle disputes but there was no king in the land there was no centralized ruler

[00:32:58] so they lived in a very decentralized fashion but they got tired of that and in first Samuel eight

[00:33:04] they go to Samuel and they say give us a king so we can be like the other nations and he'll solve all

[00:33:10] our problems and he'll fight all our battles for us and god says two things to Samuel he says one

[00:33:17] they're not rejecting you they are rejecting me god as their king in doing this just as they have

[00:33:24] always turned away from me and worshipped you know idols and golden calves and things like that

[00:33:29] and then he says two give them what they want but warn them of the consequences he says that this

[00:33:36] king is going to uh take take your property he's going to take your children and make his show make

[00:33:43] your children work for him and and uh and you're work work his fields to create his harvest

[00:33:50] he says he says your children are going to serve on the front lines of his wars and go before his

[00:33:56] chariots and then he ends it by saying you will be his slaves and on that day you will cry out

[00:34:03] because of this king that you have asked for but i will not answer you on this day so um again

[00:34:09] i think it's it's not that we're uh some people sometimes think before they look into this that

[00:34:15] christian libertarianism is this like weird like we're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole

[00:34:21] and i'm like no it's a it's a round peg into a round hole these things actually are just uh

[00:34:27] mirrors of each other and the rejection of state power or the rejection of the idea of using

[00:34:33] the sword to solve our problems is actually just baked into the biblical narrative

[00:34:38] yeah you know Camille the what you were saying i think a lot of the christian

[00:34:44] you know not all the so there's there's some crazy Christians too but some of the christian

[00:34:48] democrats they definitely have good impulses you know like they want everybody to have a living

[00:34:55] wage and they want you know all these things that are like good things but they just have the wrong

[00:35:02] idea of how to go about it like the ones that do have that good impulse it's like i they do just

[00:35:09] need education there are some libertarians that swear everybody's a libertarian they just don't

[00:35:13] know it and then there's other libertarians that think that's crazy and there's only a few of us

[00:35:18] and and that's it so i don't know i'm a little bit more hopeful and i think i think you're right i think

[00:35:25] on both the right and the left there is there's people that just haven't fully realized it yet

[00:35:31] i think some people just haven't fought it through that much especially some republicans the

[00:35:36] democrats have but because it's just such a default duopoly you know it's just like there's a lot of

[00:35:41] people i mean i was one of them bumbling around through the duopoly their whole life and just kind

[00:35:46] of voting you know whoever is kind of down down the line r or d so i think a lot of people haven't

[00:35:55] thought it through enough yet and then there is other people i think that do there was like a really

[00:36:01] good tweet i just saw the other day and it was like it's really going to be hard to achieve

[00:36:07] liberty when most people want freedom from responsibility rather than freedom from coercion

[00:36:14] and i thought that was spot on because those people were not going to convince them to be libertarians

[00:36:20] because they don't want to be responsible and you know and of course that is one other thing let me

[00:36:25] clear really fast is we're not some people think we're heartless and you know we think everybody every

[00:36:30] man for themselves but that is not true at all we want to raise communities and family to replace

[00:36:35] the state and we just want to approach taking care of these societal problems in that fashion rather than

[00:36:43] try to have this like cold-hearted state trying to have more power and do those things because it

[00:36:51] just makes everything worse some more it tries to address one problem ten more problems come up

[00:36:56] and that problem their addressing gets worse like the drug war yeah actually i went to before

[00:37:01] the church i would go to right now it was a very very very progressive left leaning church

[00:37:08] here in San Diego Methodist Church i'm not going to name them but they were very very progressive

[00:37:16] great people though they were they were the nicest people that's why I went because the people

[00:37:21] were great i loved going to the church there everyone was really great but like you're saying

[00:37:26] Carol like a lot of these the whole church was basically vote for a bigger state we want universal

[00:37:34] healthcare we want to live in wage we want the state to take care of all these problems

[00:37:39] like that was their whole thing like you know that that's our belief is that if we just had a big

[00:37:43] socialist state everything would be fantastic it just seems so i guess misguided as Christians because

[00:37:51] to me and i think it was Chad Jackson who i who had one of the greatest responses to somebody who

[00:38:00] well aren't you Christian don't you believe that the government should provide these services

[00:38:05] and Chad Jackson i believe replied as a true Christian i wouldn't

[00:38:11] delegate my duty as a Christian to take care of people to this state and true Christians don't do

[00:38:19] that and i think that's something a lot of people think about libertarians of oh well you just

[00:38:24] want everyone to defend for themselves and everyone will just you know the poor will suffer and no

[00:38:29] one's going to be there to help them which is not true at all because if you look at the amount of

[00:38:34] charity um support that a lot of these communities provide through volunteerism i think if there

[00:38:41] were more resources because you don't have a state or the state you know leaning on you so much and

[00:38:48] there were more resources for these non-profits and charities they would be even they would like

[00:38:55] yeah how much better would people be off if they if they weren't just being taxed to death or having

[00:39:02] their their savings and their income be completely destroyed by inflation right i mean because that's

[00:39:09] the other thing i mean it's like listen i mean the the the poor will always be among you right like so

[00:39:14] there's always yes i agree with everything that you were saying that we we should not be delegating what

[00:39:19] Jesus has told us to do to the state right i mean Jesus didn't say that which you voted for

[00:39:25] the state to do to the least of these you've done onto me so know what you have done to the least

[00:39:30] of these you have done onto me it's our duty as Christians as individuals and as the church

[00:39:36] to go out there and to and to again like i said earlier to be you know servants to the world just

[00:39:43] as Christ was um you know so you serve people by uh washing their feet not by compelling people with

[00:39:51] force and that's all the government is like i explained earlier but then uh to to the other point

[00:39:58] in terms of you know are we going to uh a or any of these policies actually going to have their

[00:40:05] intended effect like here I said earlier not really actually we see things like government welfare

[00:40:11] programs don't actually do anything but increase poverty and perpetuate it make a permanent class

[00:40:18] of people who are stuck in it are backed by taxation or they're backed by the federal reserve

[00:40:23] printing money to to keep up with all the the programs that you know that our government has created

[00:40:29] and and has the fund and so then we're making people worse off and we're shrinking the middle

[00:40:34] class to the point where it won't exist soon because people again they're either having their

[00:40:41] I mean you know the amount of money i lose on a on a i make a decent living right but

[00:40:47] i'd be doing a lot better if the tax money that the government you know automatic withdrawals

[00:40:53] for my paycheck every two weeks i was allowed to keep actually i'd be doing so well that i'd have

[00:40:58] extra to give away to other people and i'm just you know some some some you know Joe Smow working

[00:41:04] a middle class job uh so that's true for for all people and then also just i mean think about how much

[00:41:12] you know purchasing power is an important thing um you know because people can we can throw

[00:41:18] money at a problem but if we're throwing money at people you know and we as we're throwing money

[00:41:25] at people the amount of things they can purchase with that money is decreasing well that's not a

[00:41:31] solution either so um you know and then that's a that's a problem with uh with with with the progressive

[00:41:38] mentality and you know the Christian left misses this unfortunately i can't even say the Christian

[00:41:46] right gets this good because often in the reason i'm a libertarian and not and and not a republican

[00:41:53] is because i although there are good republicans out there you know i i love people like tomas

[00:41:58] massi i love rand paul there's a lot of great libertarian minded republicans in local positions all

[00:42:04] across the country so i don't want to paint with too broad of brush but the GOP in terms of like

[00:42:09] its national the majority of the GOP voting blocks do in washington they're really just progressives

[00:42:16] driving the speed limit they're not actually advocating for a rollback of this progressive

[00:42:22] machine like they're we're not we're not having an argument of democrats arguing for progressive

[00:42:26] policies on one side and republican saying no we need to go back to free markets no it's

[00:42:31] progressive saying we need a you know a 60 percent corporate income tax and republican saying no

[00:42:38] we just need a 35 corporate in uh percent corporate income tax it's like no abolish the income

[00:42:45] tax what are you talking there shouldn't be uh a corporate income tax or shouldn't be an individual

[00:42:49] income tax it's like so that's why i'm a libertarian because they're they're the ones

[00:42:54] actually advocating for for the free market policies in that discussion um

[00:43:00] kair i didn't know if you were going to say something you're about to jump in and say something

[00:43:04] i don't know i don't know if it's like really super relevant to the conversation but for some reason

[00:43:08] it just reminded me there's this um democrat and san diego that is i think he's about to run

[00:43:16] the first like city council or something and he's like cool you know like he genuinely wants to

[00:43:22] he's really young and he's like trying to like talk to people and he wants to like do what's good

[00:43:28] but he's still he's a he's definitely a democrat and like one of his tweets the other day was

[00:43:33] something like you know if i get in there i'm not going to raise taxes like we have too many taxes

[00:43:39] and i'm like we're capable that's great and then i keep reading he's like and i but i know we have a

[00:43:43] revenue problem i'm like no no we have a spending problem we've a spending problem yes sorry that

[00:43:49] was like that just like came into my mind like when you were talking about that because it's just like

[00:43:54] god these the politicians do they they want to talk about like investing i'm like investing what

[00:43:59] do you like is money falling out of the sky what it's me and like you mean you're going to still

[00:44:03] taxpayer dollars and decide what to do with it the money you stole from us it's just it's insane

[00:44:09] it's just the whole mindset is so contorted and it's hard because like it's like you grow up in this

[00:44:15] like that's just the way it is and people talk about the social contract and like we just live

[00:44:20] in this world and we pay taxes the one thing that's for sure death and taxes and you know people

[00:44:25] just accept it and it is it's like you have to go through this like awakening to realize like

[00:44:31] oh wait you know maybe it doesn't have to be like that maybe there's another way maybe it isn't

[00:44:37] about the government deciding what's best for all of us and you know taking more and more having

[00:44:42] revenue stream problems and wait they're not a freaking businessman what is going on

[00:44:48] revenue problem like they're like okay well it's just if I just spend another 10 dollars I'll

[00:44:54] win it all back you know and like it's not even your money or a symbol or money stop

[00:45:01] yeah like my guys always say they were a business they would have gone out of business already

[00:45:05] like yeah well that's why the government is so bad it's that's why the government is so bad at

[00:45:11] everything it does is because it's not a free market entity like free market entities have to

[00:45:16] earn every dollar they get they have to convince people to give them money the government

[00:45:22] has had to convince people it's it's it's they get their money through coercion or because they

[00:45:27] have a monopoly over the money supply and they can just decide on a whim to print more but but either

[00:45:31] way they're using coercion to get their funds and so they are not subject to actual free market pressures

[00:45:40] that actually make the free market work right you know because because you have to earn

[00:45:44] um thus the money you're getting and you have to compete and you have to because you have to earn

[00:45:49] the money that you're getting and you have to compete with others in the marketplace you're incentivized

[00:45:53] to not to be efficient right you know but also to provide a good product and so this is what

[00:45:59] you know this is how the free market has generated all of the the amazing innovations that make our

[00:46:04] lives better you know in in 21st century America and in the west and even even a lot of the second

[00:46:11] and third world has it is we know we see poverty uh largely being diminished to a large degree because

[00:46:18] of these innovations and so really all libertarians are talking about what I mean when we're

[00:46:24] talking about decentralized and government is that hey what if because like listen I think there's

[00:46:28] legitimate role for people civil disputes like we need that but should that be monopolized in a

[00:46:35] system of coercion that is is built upon violating property rights it's like hey we have a problem

[00:46:43] of some people like to predate on other people and violate their property rights so here's my solution

[00:46:50] I'm gonna create this big institution that's based on that that that's entire foundation

[00:46:55] is just one giant violation of property rights to arbitrate the other violations of property rights it's

[00:47:01] like what this is this is a lot of what Rothbard talks about anatomy of the state it's like you know

[00:47:08] that we so listen we we need to abjudicate disputes and we need to pursue justice right and so

[00:47:16] you know property rights are important and then those need to be protected um but

[00:47:22] the beauty of libertarianism is that you know we know what we don't need uh large centralized power

[00:47:29] to figure these things out we can have a decentralized approach and government officials

[00:47:35] you know you listen the Christian morality connected back to to our Christian principles do not murder

[00:47:42] do not steal do not covet right do not bear false witness these commands are not

[00:47:49] put in the bible with a little asterisk next to them that says oh unless you're a king

[00:47:55] oh unless you're uh let's you have a badge that says sheriff or cop or unless you're at a elected

[00:48:02] congressman right or unless you're a general no like these things are wrong no matter who you are

[00:48:11] no matter what kind of dressing or clothing you try to put on it or or fancy terminology

[00:48:19] you try to hide it behind uh coercion is still coercion lying is still lying and so

[00:48:26] the Christian position which coincides with the libertarian position here is you know what if

[00:48:31] if if you want to protect people if you want to be a public servant and help solve you know

[00:48:36] you know be be a third party arbiter for property disputes or you want to you know work in like

[00:48:42] security and protect people those are all noble goals but you have to be held to the same rules

[00:48:50] that you're trying to administer that's that's really the entire Christian libertarian case uh summarise

[00:48:58] there I think it going back to the budget um first there's two ways to fix budgetary problems

[00:49:06] you can do both sides of the ledgers you can fix spending or revenue um but most politicians don't

[00:49:12] understand it like Alex Lee tweeted something about well I am introducing a bill to tax billionaires

[00:49:20] in California even more than they're already taxed and uh you know let's see how many more we

[00:49:27] can chase out let's see how many more rich people we can chase out of California and you know

[00:49:33] going back to the point of like the state is just a bad uh a bad way to allocate resources

[00:49:40] I mean California tax is everyone to death and look at us we're in a 68 billion dollar deficit

[00:49:45] so they don't know how to allocate resources however I've always found that the

[00:49:49] non-profits uh that do try and help societal uh issues like one good example is here in San Diego

[00:49:58] as Father Joe's Village which serves uh how many meals to the homeless gives beds to the homeless

[00:50:04] so the point where they've they've actually raised enough money I think they're building an apartment

[00:50:09] complex to help the homeless and this is a nonprofit and like like Jacob said the free market solution is

[00:50:16] we are voting for the nonprofit that is helping society the best and they have to convince us

[00:50:24] that we're doing the best job and as Christians we can kind of look around okay maybe you go with

[00:50:30] a faith-based nonprofit one that works with my church one and we can figure out okay maybe I can

[00:50:36] volunteer maybe I can give money and so you can get involved and you are either you you are voting

[00:50:42] with your dollars and your time and your effort to support those institutions as opposed to being

[00:50:49] co-washed by the government that goes give us your money we know how to spend it we'll solve homelessness

[00:50:55] and then a year later they're like that okay sorry we're in a billion dollar deficit or a six

[00:50:59] billion dollar deficit then they want more money to create a task force to investigate right what's

[00:51:06] going on with all their plans they were trying to compare this so listen I'm in the I'm in the

[00:51:12] automotive repair field so let's compare what you just described to like if this was if you

[00:51:18] were going to conceive of something like this happening in a free market interaction like imagine

[00:51:22] you came to me and said my transmission's not working it's slipping in second gear I said all right

[00:51:27] drop it off with me leave it with me for a few days you know I diagnosed it I said all right it's

[00:51:32] gonna be about two thousand dollars by the way I already took the money I hope that's okay with you

[00:51:37] and all right it's fixed here you go you pick it up and drive it ago now it's still slipping into

[00:51:43] a second now it's also slipping into third and I take it back and go okay well I'm gonna have to

[00:51:49] charge you a thousand dollars and investigate how I didn't fix it in the first place and I already

[00:51:54] took that you didn't have any say an answer I took your thousand dollars oh I found out that actually

[00:51:59] the problem's worse than what I initially thought so now we need a new transmission and just a new

[00:52:04] engine just to be safe that's gonna be eight thousand dollars up I already took that from you as well

[00:52:08] like this is like that is how government operates and people might say oh we have a say in it

[00:52:15] because of democracy and because we vote but I mean we don't we don't first of all we don't really

[00:52:21] we don't live in a democracy we never republic so you know we vote for representatives

[00:52:26] but those representatives don't represent us they're not coming back and and and checking with

[00:52:31] their constituents they're checking with their donors they're checking with their party leaders

[00:52:35] and stuff and they're voting you know minus like two or three dissenters people vote across party lines

[00:52:41] and people vote based upon what their financial backers are telling them to vote for

[00:52:50] and especially when it comes to spending I mean and especially when it comes to spending on things

[00:52:55] like war and other things that's that's where both sides tend to agree it's one of correct

[00:53:01] so I need to correct your scenario because a year or two later they still wouldn't have the

[00:53:04] transmission replaced right exactly right and it's like and and they just keeps it keeps going on

[00:53:10] going on you're like but then right they wouldn't happen in a normal situation like the first time

[00:53:15] it doesn't get fixed you're like well I'm not paying for this because it's not fixed that's not

[00:53:19] the way that government operates though and I just share something that is kind of along the lines

[00:53:24] of this that happened recently locally a couple years ago when I was still at when I was still

[00:53:30] in ocean side at my church there we had a local um city council member from ocean side come and

[00:53:36] talk to us and one of the big problems since COVID especially in ocean side has been homelessness

[00:53:42] and just the streets are just full of encampments and people like want these encampments

[00:53:49] gone and there's just people like stealing bikes I mean I know that's like kind of a weird thing but

[00:53:53] it was like all the bikes were getting stolen and like you know people are getting people coming up

[00:53:58] to their houses a mill in the night and there's this huge problem and he really broke down in a

[00:54:04] really good way what the best solutions would be and how like housing first doesn't work because

[00:54:11] you know people just go in there and just start using and you know it's just like some people

[00:54:16] want to be killing themselves because it's just like a free place to go and use their drugs

[00:54:20] and people start asking him like why are you know why aren't people going for this other route that

[00:54:27] seems like more effective where people have to like go into treatment when they're you know

[00:54:32] when they're arrested or when they're on the street and they refuse to like vacate that spot

[00:54:36] they're not allowed to be and he and he said something that was the first time I'd ever heard

[00:54:40] then he goes there is a lot of money that a lot of people make and so there's a lot of

[00:54:46] forces at play and I just never had even considered before that homelessness was a problem that people

[00:54:55] are just profiting off of and they don't really they're not really just solving people are there to

[00:55:00] make money and like it's the famous OPM other people's money so there's a lot less accountability

[00:55:07] for how it's being spent and it's just like constant you know government contracts just throwing them

[00:55:12] out so they but if you could enough to limp these problems along and it's just it's crazy yeah

[00:55:18] well that's the incentive structure right like in a business you can't get away with that

[00:55:22] but if you have the ability to just take people's money by force then yeah you would you

[00:55:28] wouldn't be incentivized to fix the problem you'd be incentivized to keep the problem going or even

[00:55:34] make it worse so that you can keep taking people's money that's that's the whole it's the whole

[00:55:41] problem with with the dynamic of the state and it's and it's uh again ability to we're we're

[00:55:47] going to protect property rights by violating property rights it's a it's a it's a non-sequitur

[00:55:55] so we had a couple minutes left um I want to be cognizant of Jacob's time because he's up

[00:56:01] in what is it Wednesday morning at this point where he is um finals tomorrow where I'm at

[00:56:07] it's already the next day he's already one day closer to Christmas um so final thoughts from both

[00:56:13] of you uh in terms of any Christian who's listening right now who might be tired with uh

[00:56:22] being either democrat or republican or or or you know maybe give the Christian caucus a look like

[00:56:30] what would you say to those Christians who are tuning in where could they find more resources

[00:56:34] and get started and going down the rabbit hole of self discovery you want to go yeah so

[00:56:41] care do you want to go first you want me to go first you can go all right um yeah so listen I

[00:56:46] mean if if what we're saying here piques your interest uh makes sense to you and you want to find out

[00:56:51] more i mean um you can find us on twitter um i don't know our exact twitter handle off time i

[00:56:57] think it's like LP uh LP Christ caucus LP Christ caucus yet um you can follow me at biblical

[00:57:04] anarchy as well on twitter um and uh and reach out to us we we we love to talk with you um

[00:57:12] you know listen i mean the uh i think it's clear that you know every election right every four years

[00:57:21] becomes the most important election of our lifetime and i think a lot of people and

[00:57:25] and a lot of Christians are starting to get a sense that this is really just a lot of theater

[00:57:31] and a lot of a lot of people at the top making a spectacle but at the end of the day nothing gets

[00:57:38] solved by either side and so no matter where you're coming from right if you're coming from

[00:57:43] you know left of center right of center or you you're just politically homeless and you've always been

[00:57:48] that way um and what we're saying makes sense i mean you know we're we're committed like with

[00:57:55] the onset right we want to be a group of Christians who are coalition together uh towards

[00:58:01] different towards a lot of different ends right we're we're looking first and foremost i think what

[00:58:06] what caran i and the founders uh agree on is that our our primary objective isn't even political it's

[00:58:14] it's to be uh it's to be servants to to to Christ and to his kingdom first and foremost and everything

[00:58:21] we do we hope that we're doing it in a way that gives glory to him and that we're we're doing

[00:58:27] things that he is calling us to do um but you know some some people feel that you know God calls them

[00:58:33] into these arena and to fight certain battles in these these public spheres and so if if that's you

[00:58:41] and you know whether it's issues like abortion whether it's issues like health freedom uh what if

[00:58:47] it issues like uh homeschooling and having the right of parents to educate your children the

[00:58:53] children the way you want to educate them um if it's you know fearing another you know lockdown over

[00:59:02] people trying to scare people with with different uh pandemics and things like that um whether it's war

[00:59:10] there there's so many issues we have like a ten-point platform that uh that were that we that

[00:59:16] we we've constructed with the different issues that we focus on the I've kind of gone through most

[00:59:21] of them there but you know if these are things that you feel convicted of that you don't like the way

[00:59:27] things are in our society and and you want to work with other Christians towards trying to advocate

[00:59:33] for solutions to these problems um you know we we would love to work with you and that's what the

[00:59:39] Christian caucus is all about it's about bringing glory to God and bringing Christians together

[00:59:45] to define ways to work together and also to work with other people and other groups in these

[00:59:51] different spheres uh to try to affect change you know we we believe in issue coalitions and so

[00:59:57] we have you know i and kara can get into more details about this we have several projects in the

[01:00:01] and the works where we're going to be partnering with other groups that are already in the uh

[01:00:06] sort of like political and libertarian spheres to try to you know start making some noise

[01:00:12] and get people working together whether it's phone baking whether it's uh you know attending certain

[01:00:18] events or rallies whether it's trying to get people to uh you know push certain legislation there's

[01:00:24] so many ways in which we can work together to put pressure on public officials uh to try to start

[01:00:34] make meaningful change and also to move move the overton window and to really put the message of

[01:00:40] of the gospel and the message of of peace and of freedom into the public square so that people

[01:00:46] can hear it and more people can be woken up to that truth because i think that's also the long term

[01:00:51] goal is to just reach more people with these ideas and these and and this message because

[01:00:57] that that you know ideas are what drive culture and and the more people come to believe in certain

[01:01:04] ideas the more we see those ideas uh take root and i'll end on this this is something that

[01:01:11] Ron Paul used to say and i love he said um you know there's nothing more dangerous than an idea that's

[01:01:19] i'm really exactly worried like nothing more dangerous than than an idea that day has come

[01:01:25] essentially and i think for a lot of people on a lot of these issues that i've raised

[01:01:30] these ideas aren't reaching ahead where people are starting to realize the truth and these ideas day

[01:01:37] is it is closer to coming than we may think and we can work towards accomplishing those

[01:01:44] yeah so i i have like two little things that i'll just kind of like end with to um address like

[01:01:50] these hypothetical people that Phil's talking about um one of the things that was slowing me down

[01:01:56] from joining the libertarian party at first was kind of just like that fear of leaving where I

[01:02:02] felt like my only chance to make an impact was um which is one of the two major parties um and i

[01:02:08] remember i you know gain like pushback about that like well your vote won't even matter and then

[01:02:14] you know i just was like well as a republican does my vote even matter and kind of forget so

[01:02:19] and and also it's just i don't know i got to this point whether whatever you think about how much

[01:02:25] your vote is going to impact an election you know depending on what party you're in besides that

[01:02:30] i've just got to a point i think covid pushed a lot of people to come to these kind of like

[01:02:35] existential you know points in their life and i just go do i just want to be trapped somewhere where

[01:02:41] i don't really feel like i belong um politically um or do i want to like follow where i really believe

[01:02:48] i should be and where i like the you know what i mean where i find value and where i find the

[01:02:55] the work that i should be doing is and so i think if you know you're one of those people that

[01:03:00] just feels like you know everything makes sense but you're like oh you know well that's a problem

[01:03:07] everybody's scared to leave the dookley that's like we we need people to stop being afraid to leave so

[01:03:13] i am dedicated to not going back and i because i just you know i'm not going to live that way i'm

[01:03:21] not going to live by like somebody else's you know standard you got to be a republican

[01:03:26] democrat no i i'm not either one of those so i'm not going to be no matter if you know it like

[01:03:32] someone tells me i'm throwing you know i'm throwing a vote to the other team by not voting for

[01:03:37] you know the better of two evils no i'm i'm going to vote for and you know put my political

[01:03:43] you know willpower behind what i believe in um and then the other thing is if you're not

[01:03:49] fully into what we're saying and doing and you're listening but you you can

[01:03:55] ascertain that there's a couple things that we totally line up on Jacob kind of mentioned we're

[01:03:59] totally into issue coalitions so with single issue coalitions it doesn't mean you have to

[01:04:05] compromise anything else it's just we come together on one thing no matter what you believe about

[01:04:10] other things if there's something that we line up on like you know there's power in numbers and

[01:04:16] we will line up with anybody on issues that we line up on and we can just leave the other stuff

[01:04:21] alone right now um we're kind of like gearing up to address flooding the committee members

[01:04:28] with calls where that defund plan parenthood through really just a moratorium on the funding

[01:04:33] has been in committee for almost a year so for the one-year anniversary we are working on getting

[01:04:40] people altogether to do that so that's something we're going to do so if anybody that's like feeling

[01:04:45] you know like they don't want government funding going to plan parenthood or your pro pro life

[01:04:50] or vote then you know hit us up and join us in that effort another thing is I would like to

[01:04:57] plug really quick the nieces caucus has been pushing really hard defend the guard legislation

[01:05:02] in every state so that just has to do with you know bringing our troops home from these endless wars

[01:05:08] not letting um you know not letting them go to war when there's not even a constitutionally declared

[01:05:15] war making congress tickets powers back so it's kind of like just a way we can take a small step

[01:05:23] towards bringing troops home that's like the main goal of that and right now especially in

[01:05:28] California I know they're they need someone to sponsor the bill and since this is a California

[01:05:33] based podcast I'll just throw it out there like if anybody you know fill so in client to like look

[01:05:39] it up and then start hitting up legislators we got to like find someone that would be willing

[01:05:43] to sponsor that bill but if you want to check out that it's defendtheguard.us and if you go to

[01:05:50] defend the guard.us slash phone bank you can get on an email list to help phone baking for that

[01:05:58] legislation so I just wanted to throw that out there those are a couple things we're working

[01:06:02] on right now yeah and if I could just put one more thing out there because what carousad brought

[01:06:07] to mind people were struggling with you know I feel like I get a vote for one side or the other

[01:06:13] because maybe I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying but man like this one side so bad

[01:06:18] I just feel like I have to vote for this other one because they're just not as bad and listen

[01:06:23] that might even be true right like maybe you're right maybe one side is worse than the other

[01:06:28] but is that like if you're a Christian right what should we should be convicted by what the Bible

[01:06:32] says and I'll end on this passage here which I think really instructs what I think Karen and I

[01:06:37] are getting at it's the end of Romans 12 starting in verse 17 repay no one evil for evil but give

[01:06:45] thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all if possible so far as it depends on you

[01:06:51] live peaceably with all never avenge yourselves but leave it to the wrath of God for it has written

[01:06:57] vengeance's mind I will repay says the Lord to the contrary if your enemy is hungry feed him

[01:07:03] if he is thirsty give him something to drink for by doing so you will keep burning calls on his head

[01:07:09] and this last part is the most important do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil

[01:07:14] with good it doesn't say overcome evil with the lesser evil evil cannot drive out evil darkness

[01:07:21] cannot drive out darkness the only thing that can drive out darkness is light and as we know from

[01:07:27] the Bible as it says like in the gospel of John it starts out the light that shines in the darkness

[01:07:32] is Jesus Christ he is the word he is the truth that is what we have to rest on that's what we have

[01:07:38] to advocate and no matter what we do we cannot advocate for for lesser evils whether they're whether

[01:07:44] their ideas are politicians or political parties to try to bring our country bring our society

[01:07:50] towards a better place we have to add you know even if we're in a position where the minority

[01:07:55] and it feels like man how are we going to make a difference Jesus had a rag tech group of

[01:08:00] you know a few hundred people and through what they did they changed the landscape of the entire world

[01:08:07] so it's not about numbers it's about the power of what truth and advocating for

[01:08:13] for what is right and what is true and what is good what those things do and that's what the

[01:08:18] the role of the Christian should be well said I've really enjoyed this this podcast episode

[01:08:25] tonight I really enjoyed this conversation I feel like we could have gone like another hour or so

[01:08:30] but would have been way past Jacob's bedtime with that said obviously I'd love to have you guys

[01:08:36] back on whenever you guys want to come back on it'll probably help Jacob when our new starting time

[01:08:41] six o'clock in 2024 so that might be a little bit better also Jacob I think you're selling yourself

[01:08:48] short did you mention your own podcast that people can go listen to and tune into oh yeah so

[01:08:55] I mean you could follow me at biblical anarchy and if you uh want to listen to more about these

[01:09:01] ideas I have my own podcast through Libertarian Christian Institute which again plugging the book on

[01:09:07] my left wrote the book faith seeking freedom so hey go to uh Libertariancrisons.com get the book if

[01:09:15] you haven't already because it's a great sort of like I mean it's a very short read I mean it's

[01:09:21] not it's not very thick we're talking about you know a little over a hundred pages so you can

[01:09:25] you can read it in a uh you know and a night or two and it kind of covers a lot of you know we try

[01:09:31] to cover a lot here but there's probably a lot of little questions if people might still have if

[01:09:35] they're learning about Libertarianism for the first time and wondering how it works with Christianity

[01:09:41] so that books a great place to start we have a lot of podcasts to Libertarian Christian Institute

[01:09:47] what we call it the Christians for Liberty Network so you can go to Libertariancrisons.com and check

[01:09:52] all of those out where if you want to find my podcast specifically it's the biblical anarchy podcast.com

[01:09:58] Awesome well thank you guys for being here and like I said hopefully we get to see you guys come

[01:10:02] back on to the show soon and we'll continue the discussion um and as we end every show uh thank

[01:10:10] everyone for tuning in make sure you like share subscribe comment helps the algorithm helps more

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[01:10:24] would find it interesting and uh on that note this is the end of our 2023 podcast lineup and uh

[01:10:32] thanks everyone for tuning in Mary Christmas happy holidays everybody and we'll see y'all in 2024

[01:10:37] have a good night everybody

[01:10:51] thank you for listening to another episode of california underground if you like what you heard

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